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I found a conversation between Ezra Klein and Fareed Zakaria on this very topic to be quite sobering and instructive

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Andrew Chakhoyan πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦
Andrew Chakhoyan πŸ‡ΊπŸ‡¦
@andrewchak.bsky.social · 12d · Bluesky
The Ezra Klein Show
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The Ezra Klein Show